17 Comments

I sense that Klein is a progressive globalist. So globalist that he rejects identities. His views seem to indicate he's doesn't care for shared identity groups or their needs unless it's the one globalist shared identity. It's an extension of individualism that goes over the edge. Reminds me of Deneen's book "Why Liberalism Failed" where I think he's really talking about the cusp of progressivism and beyond, not the heart of liberalism. Since so much atheism exists within that progressive wing, no need to cow tow to anyone's religion or religious identity (unless it's Islam of course). Instead, it's about the progressive dogma which is a kind of religionism in itself. On the other hand, Classical Liberals - liberals and conservatives - tend to have a healthy version of nationalism, but not ultranationalism in the paleoconservative sense. Also, liberals tend to be patriotic which progressives tend not to be. Again, that's the globalists' position. Progressives tend not to fly America's flag or respect it. They fly the anti-American divisive one. Lots of Jews have had to reckon with their progressive left bonafides. They've previously been soft on socialism but now some are seeing how it doesn't scale up (beyond families and insular communities) without authoritarianism, censorship, speech control, top down collectivism and more. Ugh.

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You may be right. He did write an essay attacking Hanukkah and suggesting that Jews should celebrate Christmas instead, in order to fit in. You can imagine how much I disagree with this sentiment. But my primary contention is the way he comports himself in debates, which I find disgraceful.

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Progressives tend to insult you when you don't agree with them. They don't debate. One way or the highway. Nothing to discuss.

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Funny thing is, I believe he identifies as a classical liberal. But they both act like woke activists.

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Oh my. That involves reason over emotion. Pluralism over fundamentalism. Debate over dictate. I'm not seeing it.

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1) Woke right? Please define. I thought woke was exclusively left. Please enlighten me.

2) She could like her own comments. Like this.

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1) I've only ever used it for the left but have recently seen "woke right" making the rounds, first by Dan Crenshaw circa 2022 then Konstantin Kisin. Denotations differ, but essentially the woke see themselves as eternal victims of an unjust system, dismiss anyone who challenges this worldview as racists, globalists, etc while themselves being incredibly prejudiced in a variety of ways, particularly being racist, antisemitic, and sexist. The woke also see America as a failed state in its current form and either want to bring back the good ol' days (right) or usher in the utopia (left). There are more parallels, but these are the main ones.

2) Good point, though I'm not sure which is worse.

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Ugh. Wow. Had not heard of them. I gotta spend more time online. (LOL) Another group driven by narcisistic grievances. I wish they would all melt away into oblivion. But I suspect they’ll be another shrill voice in the chorus of chaos on social media. Oh well.

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Well, I think some people apply the term to MAGA since some of them see themselves as victims of an unjust system, dismiss critics as globalists, are racist, sexist, antisemitic, and as the name MAGA implies, want to usher in a return to the good ol' days. This is not true of everyone who identifies as such, but it becomes more and more true as one moves deeper into the far-right.

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Understood. These woke tactics, left or right, are alternatives to critical thinking. There was a time when teachers weeded them out as a primary focus of education. Now these tactics are taught in the curriculum.

I mentioned critical thinking to my daughter, who is in a PhD program. Her response was to say I had been spending too much time on the internet. She no longer speaks with me.

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I am sorry to hear this. Hopefully it will change with time. God knows how many parents are experiencing this. I fear it for myself.

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Jake seems to be saying that "bad" Jews are responsible for the rise of Right Wing Racism. Is there anything Jews are not being blamed for by anti-Zionists?

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I delight in witnessing a civil yet deep discussion about a question, with sincere effort to find clarity. It's not an easy thing, and it takes dedication. Sometimes one realizes something important. Sometimes one makes a mistake and sees the light. Bravo. That's my background in philosophy. That said, it seemed to me that the soft place in the argument with Klein hinged on the meaning of "identity politics." This is a popular code phrase, evoking negative emotions which get in the way of clarification. I saw you make a good faith effort more than once to find common ground by getting him to see what you actually meant when you used the term. I saw that Klein wanted to put words in your mouth, because he has a different understanding of "identity politics." It's as if his argument is: identity politics is bad, zionism = identity politics, therefore zionism is bad. Oh, logic.

You try to question him and correct him with regards to your own position and his position, but neither of you are engaged in clarifying the meaning of "identity politics." This is the slippery zone. Is he really in favor of abolishing all categories of shared self-identity? That would surely be the utmost outcome of the belief that "all identity politics is bad" (depending on what we're actually talking about.) This leads to no Jew, no Christian, no woman, no man. Just "individuals." Which, we discover, is a category of enlightenment thinking. Interesting. We're back to shared categories. We just can't get away from them. Or can we? That's an underlying question.

If Klein wants to take a more moderate position, he might turn out to be in favor of individuals embracing a shared identity in order to support the most vibrant, transcendent values of that identity. If he is, then he should support the Jewish homeland, because it is fundamental to the faith of Judaism. Judea --> Judaism, get it? Not too hard. But, if Klein despises Jews, well... they're just not one of his favorite categories. And why is that?

We find Klein's beliefs threatening to be exposed as logically inconsistent: Some people should live in their so-called "homeland" while others should not. Who is to adjudicate that? The real questions, as ever, are the most interesting, yet they are so rarely engaged, because people feel fundamentally threatened to discover that their beliefs do not make sense. And we're back in the agora with Socrates.

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Thanks for the thoughtful comment, Diana. It was a pleasure to read. But I did make an effort to clarify the term "identity politics" by pointing out that he was taking it in a way different that Weiss, Kisin or I were giving it, so to speak. Had he shown any good-faith interest in this, we could then have discussed why I disagree that Zionism is identity politics. However Klein, being Jewish, is not antisemitic. Just petty and dishonest in the way that he debates. Ukraine is for Ukrainians. Mexico is for Mexicans. No one has a problem with this. No one considers it identity politics. We don't even have a word for it.

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That's what upsets me about people opposing Zionism! What about ALL THE OTHER NATIONS that have a strong ethnic identity? If I said, "I don't hate Japanese people, I just don't think Japan should exist" would anyone take me seriously? No! The lack of fairness when it comes to Jewish people drives me crazy. And I'm not even Jewish!

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Jan 5
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Marx was born to Jews, but was antisemitic. Socialists are antisemitic on the whole which is why I've always found it strange that so many Jews are soft on progressivism. At the Democrat Party Legislative District meetings in Seattle, they're quite antisemitic. Maybe that will help get the Jews to choose to be moderates in the long run because I've talked a few Jews into joining the party and running to be Precinct Committee Officers and they're fairly appalled by what they see and hear.

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Of course, anyone who leads with an ad hominem argument and consistently rejects all offers to correct their course is not worth anyone's time. This is a person who is deaf to themselves, primarily.

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