I’ll just say here what I said on Facebook and what surprisingly many of my leftist/progressive friends seem to agree with:
I shouldn’t be surprised that people arguing whether or not Yilong Ma made a “Nazi salute” are completely missing the point. Either he didn’t and he’s just an insufferably cringe dork who doesn’t know how to move his hands or arms like a normal human being, or he did and he’s just an insufferably cringe dork who couldn’t resist making a blatant attempt to troll everyone into reacting just as they are now.
Take it from the history dork that has spent the better part of seven years now (not to mention a good portion of grad school) researching the rise, fall, and various permutations of Nazism: it doesn’t matter either way what Elon did because the 20th century’s genocidal right wing totalitarian state didn’t begin and end with the Roman salute (which by the way Americans were doing during the pledge of allegiance until Hitler ruined it for everyone). When he actually secures some kind of office, gets Trump to retire or waits for him to die, dissolves the office of the president and declares himself the CEO of the American people, and starts giving prophecies that some diasporic minority will pay for plunging the world into another global war, then maybe I’ll be worried about whether or not his weird hand motions actually carry any significance.
I served in the Army. I am more sensitive than the average person to signals that a person may be betraying the idea of America. My commitment to the American idea was bought and paid for with the labors of an Infantry Officer - not an absolute protectant against error, but certainly a much higher bar than, “writes long-winded comments on social media.”
Your whiny, handwringing complaint (Michael, the commenter’s, not the author’s) is a sterile gesture. I have no evidence that you care about America or Americans. My greatest suspicion is that you merely desire to be seen as “the right sort of” person. To you I say, “take the log out of your own eye, before you attempt to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.”
You, sir, are a disgrace to the uniform you say you wore. You don’t even understand the basic principles of the nation you claim to have defended—free speech, freedom of thought, diversity of opinion. You call names rather than respect those you disagree with? You are no American that I recognize. I think you might be more comfortable emigrating to Russia. Wear one of Putin’s uniforms. It might fit you really well.
Blah, blah, blah. Another whiner, like the many I encounter in Seattle on the Burke Gilman Trail or at Gasworks Park. Full of moral indignation but definitely can’t explain where morality comes from.
By the way - what is a woman? I know we have a Supreme Court Justice who doesn’t consider themselves qualified to answer this question - perhaps you can?
I think I am qualified. A woman is an adult human female. A human female is defined as a person whose body plan developed in utero and after to produce large gametes. This is a biological matter, not a psychological thing. There are only two human sexes, as is true in most of nature.
How women look and act is a different matter—some are feminine some are butch some like men some like women some like both or neither.
What one does to one’s body with dress up or drugs or surgery doesn’t change one’s sex.
I didn’t merely “say” I wore the uniform. My profile picture is actually me, in my actual uniform (configured to reflect my status at the time I separated in March 2001), standing in front of my namesake, who is buried in Barrancas National Cemetery, on Memorial Day 2024.
I love this country. I am an immigrant who came to the US at the age of seven. That was almost 70 years ago. My life has taken me from the slums of Brooklyn to the highest reaches of academia and of Wall Street. My journey could only have happened here, where the Statue of Liberty is still in New York harbor, and where everyone or their family is ultimately from somewhere else. I did not serve in the military. I fought for my country other ways. Sometimes by trying to force it to live up to its best ideals—via marching and protesting and contributing and voting against the Vietnam war, for Civil Rights, and so on. One way to be a loyal American is to do your best to make it be the best it can be.
How does whining about “ghost NAZIs” make America the best it can be? In your off hours are you also whining about gangster rap that glorifies murder and violence? Are you whining about Islam, which perpetually lies about the Quran and the character of its prophet, Mohammad? Does it make America better when a bunch of immature human beings take over multiple blocks of the City of Seattle in 2020 in order to protest the drug overdose of George Floyd? Does it make America better when parents “clip” the penises of their adolescent boys?
Listen - we can actually get along. It is very possible. But you’re going to have to abandon your “end times” outlook. The only end times period is described in the Book of Revelation, and the Apostle Paul rebuked those predicting “we’re living in the ‘end times’”. No one knows the day or hour that the ’end times’ will be upon us. Our duty is only to live righteously and speak the truth. And it is NOT true that Musk performed a NAZI salute. Stop the lying and rejoin humanity - we’ll be waiting for you when you do.
So, David, this is the caliber of follower you seem to be attracting. Is that what you want for your Substack? I understand the desire to find a niche by being orthogonal to most commentary, and maybe even contrarian. But do you really want to wind up as a voice leading a pack of baying ignoramuses? I know the Seattle paper fucked you over, and I get your bitter reaction. But is this who you want to become? I warn you, it’s a ratchet mechanism—it goes only one way, more and more….
Michael, do you believe JDFree reads and enjoys the writing of this classic liberal, i.e. left-winger, yet also thinks that literally all left-wingers are actually retarded? Or do you think maybe JD was, to some degree, writing with tongue in cheek?
Elon was just remembering the Salute of the Horatii that he learned in history class at Penn? What’s next? When it’s revealed that the boy has a swastika tattoo, you’ll claim he once converted to Jainism and it’s just an ancient religious symbol, what’s the prob?
See, normal humans throw kisses, fling flowers, and toss their hearts by spreading their arms outward in a horizontal arc. That enables what they are sharing to be distributed broadly via centrifugal force.
This was unmistakably a Nazi salute. Spit on Elon or join him in snapping your arm in adoration of his Führer. But don’t deny the evidence of all our eyes. It’s beneath you.
I never said Elon was just remembering the salute of the Horatii. My argument is that progressives engineered the semantic expansion of "fascist," making it irrational to take such accusations seriously while facilitating the normalization of fascism itself through concept creep.
And, while making this point, I briefly commented on the history of the gesture as an aside—because I find history interesting and it's how I structure many of my essays.
Yet the fact that you imagined my motives like this, and in particular such absurd ones, should give you pause when you so confidently speak in exactly the same way about Musk, because you're demonstrating precisely what I commented on in the piece.
David, you are no fascist yourself—I know that, and I am aware of your well-earned sensitivity to loose accusations of fascism because of what happened to you in Seattle. Beyond that, I respect and appreciate your heterodox take on things generally. In this case, though, I think you’re riding the wrong horse. Elon is clearly at least Nazi-adjacent.
Did the left debase the meaning of these labels? Yes, of course—fascist, misogynist, transphobe, rapist, “violence.” The epithets were spread so thin so as to lose all meaning. Agreed.
I’m not using the newspeak definitions, though. Elon is a fascist in the original meaning embodied by Mussolini, Franco, Salazar, Hitler, and Pinochet.
Please don’t let your personal history blind you. Elon’s the real bad deal.
My experience in Seattle was an egregious example of the problem, but one example does not a pattern make. I am responding to the entire tapestry. People have claimed math is racist, grammar is racist, logic is racist. People say there is literal trans genocide in the US, a literal black genocide, a literal Palestinian genocide. We have been told that ours is a rape culture, a white supremacist culture. Trump is a Nazi, Musk is a Nazi, and of course, I have been told that I am a Holocaust denier and a Nazi. You don't have to be attacked by a mob to see the pattern, but it definitely helps lift the veil.
Annd as to your second point, Musk used to be a Democrat. The only evidence I see of fascistic belief would be his support for AfD, and that in itself is not enough.
Can you elaborate where it counts? There’s no question that his endorsement of Alternative fur Deutschland is misguided at best and indicative at worst, but that’s Germany; that has little to do with where he is actually invested, which is the United States and its politics. If he’s a Nazi, he has a funny way of showing it by going to war with the nativist wing of MAGA over H1B’s and immigration. I’ve seen some people try to say that his desire for cheap foreign labor makes him even more Nazi-like but then that means every developed nation on Earth is Nazi-like. So even if he was dog whistling with an earnest Roman salute, what is the actual risk? What happens? White nationalists already like Trump, some of them still like Musk. What’s the game plan in your view? Where does this go in your worst case scenario?
Michael Fuchs, I am truly curious about your assertion that that "Elon is clearly at least Nazi-adjacent." I have read much both praising and condemning Musk. He is obviously both a brilliant and flawed individual. I have not read any credible accounts of him promoting fascist ideology or expressing sympathy for Nazism. Have I missed something? Or does your personal distain for Musk lead you to assert that this was meant to be, must unequivocally be, a Nazi salute - and therefore Musk must be a Nazi sympathizer? Has Musk ever referred to Trump as Führer? Has he proposed governmental control over private enterprise according to the fascistic model? Have I missed any suggestion on his part that "undesirables" should be interned in detainment camps or disposed of in death camps? Wherein has Musk advocated conquering other countries and creating Lebensraum? Did I miss something he said publicly about Aryans, a master-race, or purifying the American people of racial impurities? I would be very interested in seeing proof of your contention ... beyond this singular ambivalent gesture.
So your accusations are based on his observations that AfD appear to be the only German political party willing to stem the virtually unrestricted flow of immigrants into Germany? I find this unconvincing as proof that Musk is "Nazi adjacent". It is a stretch to believe that AfD are Nazis in the traditional and historical meaning of the word. I find some of their positions somewhat repulsive, but nothing I have read (including the links to which you referred me) prove they are neo-Nazis.
With regard to the gesture you characterize as a Nazi salute, I have seen photos of Obama, Clinton, Biden, and Harris making the same gesture. Given their authoritarian leanings, would I be justified in casting them in the same light?
There are many things for which you can honestly castigate Elon Musk. Why dilute your valid criticism with this conspiracy-theory-like craziness? You seem to be a rational person. Doesn't it make more sense to focus on the alleged misogyny, hypocrisy, slave-driver attitude toward employees, etc? Wouldn't attacking his political stances be more persuasive than calling him names? Especially using the tired, old Nazi trope that has been so abused that it no longer had any effect during the recent election.
I’ll just say here what I said on Facebook and what surprisingly many of my leftist/progressive friends seem to agree with:
I shouldn’t be surprised that people arguing whether or not Yilong Ma made a “Nazi salute” are completely missing the point. Either he didn’t and he’s just an insufferably cringe dork who doesn’t know how to move his hands or arms like a normal human being, or he did and he’s just an insufferably cringe dork who couldn’t resist making a blatant attempt to troll everyone into reacting just as they are now.
Take it from the history dork that has spent the better part of seven years now (not to mention a good portion of grad school) researching the rise, fall, and various permutations of Nazism: it doesn’t matter either way what Elon did because the 20th century’s genocidal right wing totalitarian state didn’t begin and end with the Roman salute (which by the way Americans were doing during the pledge of allegiance until Hitler ruined it for everyone). When he actually secures some kind of office, gets Trump to retire or waits for him to die, dissolves the office of the president and declares himself the CEO of the American people, and starts giving prophecies that some diasporic minority will pay for plunging the world into another global war, then maybe I’ll be worried about whether or not his weird hand motions actually carry any significance.
I served in the Army. I am more sensitive than the average person to signals that a person may be betraying the idea of America. My commitment to the American idea was bought and paid for with the labors of an Infantry Officer - not an absolute protectant against error, but certainly a much higher bar than, “writes long-winded comments on social media.”
Your whiny, handwringing complaint (Michael, the commenter’s, not the author’s) is a sterile gesture. I have no evidence that you care about America or Americans. My greatest suspicion is that you merely desire to be seen as “the right sort of” person. To you I say, “take the log out of your own eye, before you attempt to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.”
You, sir, are a disgrace to the uniform you say you wore. You don’t even understand the basic principles of the nation you claim to have defended—free speech, freedom of thought, diversity of opinion. You call names rather than respect those you disagree with? You are no American that I recognize. I think you might be more comfortable emigrating to Russia. Wear one of Putin’s uniforms. It might fit you really well.
Blah, blah, blah. Another whiner, like the many I encounter in Seattle on the Burke Gilman Trail or at Gasworks Park. Full of moral indignation but definitely can’t explain where morality comes from.
By the way - what is a woman? I know we have a Supreme Court Justice who doesn’t consider themselves qualified to answer this question - perhaps you can?
I think I am qualified. A woman is an adult human female. A human female is defined as a person whose body plan developed in utero and after to produce large gametes. This is a biological matter, not a psychological thing. There are only two human sexes, as is true in most of nature.
How women look and act is a different matter—some are feminine some are butch some like men some like women some like both or neither.
What one does to one’s body with dress up or drugs or surgery doesn’t change one’s sex.
Does that help?
I didn’t merely “say” I wore the uniform. My profile picture is actually me, in my actual uniform (configured to reflect my status at the time I separated in March 2001), standing in front of my namesake, who is buried in Barrancas National Cemetery, on Memorial Day 2024.
Where’s your “ante” for your American patriotism?
I love this country. I am an immigrant who came to the US at the age of seven. That was almost 70 years ago. My life has taken me from the slums of Brooklyn to the highest reaches of academia and of Wall Street. My journey could only have happened here, where the Statue of Liberty is still in New York harbor, and where everyone or their family is ultimately from somewhere else. I did not serve in the military. I fought for my country other ways. Sometimes by trying to force it to live up to its best ideals—via marching and protesting and contributing and voting against the Vietnam war, for Civil Rights, and so on. One way to be a loyal American is to do your best to make it be the best it can be.
How does whining about “ghost NAZIs” make America the best it can be? In your off hours are you also whining about gangster rap that glorifies murder and violence? Are you whining about Islam, which perpetually lies about the Quran and the character of its prophet, Mohammad? Does it make America better when a bunch of immature human beings take over multiple blocks of the City of Seattle in 2020 in order to protest the drug overdose of George Floyd? Does it make America better when parents “clip” the penises of their adolescent boys?
Listen - we can actually get along. It is very possible. But you’re going to have to abandon your “end times” outlook. The only end times period is described in the Book of Revelation, and the Apostle Paul rebuked those predicting “we’re living in the ‘end times’”. No one knows the day or hour that the ’end times’ will be upon us. Our duty is only to live righteously and speak the truth. And it is NOT true that Musk performed a NAZI salute. Stop the lying and rejoin humanity - we’ll be waiting for you when you do.
Historian of Leftism here. All left-wing people are mentally retarded.
Gee, that was easy.
So, David, this is the caliber of follower you seem to be attracting. Is that what you want for your Substack? I understand the desire to find a niche by being orthogonal to most commentary, and maybe even contrarian. But do you really want to wind up as a voice leading a pack of baying ignoramuses? I know the Seattle paper fucked you over, and I get your bitter reaction. But is this who you want to become? I warn you, it’s a ratchet mechanism—it goes only one way, more and more….
Michael, do you believe JDFree reads and enjoys the writing of this classic liberal, i.e. left-winger, yet also thinks that literally all left-wingers are actually retarded? Or do you think maybe JD was, to some degree, writing with tongue in cheek?
Unfortunately so are the rest of us. The left wing has no monopoly on stupidity.
Sorry, not even close to passing the laugh test.
Elon was just remembering the Salute of the Horatii that he learned in history class at Penn? What’s next? When it’s revealed that the boy has a swastika tattoo, you’ll claim he once converted to Jainism and it’s just an ancient religious symbol, what’s the prob?
See, normal humans throw kisses, fling flowers, and toss their hearts by spreading their arms outward in a horizontal arc. That enables what they are sharing to be distributed broadly via centrifugal force.
This was unmistakably a Nazi salute. Spit on Elon or join him in snapping your arm in adoration of his Führer. But don’t deny the evidence of all our eyes. It’s beneath you.
I never said Elon was just remembering the salute of the Horatii. My argument is that progressives engineered the semantic expansion of "fascist," making it irrational to take such accusations seriously while facilitating the normalization of fascism itself through concept creep.
And, while making this point, I briefly commented on the history of the gesture as an aside—because I find history interesting and it's how I structure many of my essays.
Yet the fact that you imagined my motives like this, and in particular such absurd ones, should give you pause when you so confidently speak in exactly the same way about Musk, because you're demonstrating precisely what I commented on in the piece.
Oh, and this should help clarify.
https://x.com/esjesjesj/status/1881716580876497257?s=61&t=coJn76122FaTbYD5_vu5-Q
David, you are no fascist yourself—I know that, and I am aware of your well-earned sensitivity to loose accusations of fascism because of what happened to you in Seattle. Beyond that, I respect and appreciate your heterodox take on things generally. In this case, though, I think you’re riding the wrong horse. Elon is clearly at least Nazi-adjacent.
Did the left debase the meaning of these labels? Yes, of course—fascist, misogynist, transphobe, rapist, “violence.” The epithets were spread so thin so as to lose all meaning. Agreed.
I’m not using the newspeak definitions, though. Elon is a fascist in the original meaning embodied by Mussolini, Franco, Salazar, Hitler, and Pinochet.
Please don’t let your personal history blind you. Elon’s the real bad deal.
My experience in Seattle was an egregious example of the problem, but one example does not a pattern make. I am responding to the entire tapestry. People have claimed math is racist, grammar is racist, logic is racist. People say there is literal trans genocide in the US, a literal black genocide, a literal Palestinian genocide. We have been told that ours is a rape culture, a white supremacist culture. Trump is a Nazi, Musk is a Nazi, and of course, I have been told that I am a Holocaust denier and a Nazi. You don't have to be attacked by a mob to see the pattern, but it definitely helps lift the veil.
Annd as to your second point, Musk used to be a Democrat. The only evidence I see of fascistic belief would be his support for AfD, and that in itself is not enough.
Can you elaborate where it counts? There’s no question that his endorsement of Alternative fur Deutschland is misguided at best and indicative at worst, but that’s Germany; that has little to do with where he is actually invested, which is the United States and its politics. If he’s a Nazi, he has a funny way of showing it by going to war with the nativist wing of MAGA over H1B’s and immigration. I’ve seen some people try to say that his desire for cheap foreign labor makes him even more Nazi-like but then that means every developed nation on Earth is Nazi-like. So even if he was dog whistling with an earnest Roman salute, what is the actual risk? What happens? White nationalists already like Trump, some of them still like Musk. What’s the game plan in your view? Where does this go in your worst case scenario?
Michael Fuchs, I am truly curious about your assertion that that "Elon is clearly at least Nazi-adjacent." I have read much both praising and condemning Musk. He is obviously both a brilliant and flawed individual. I have not read any credible accounts of him promoting fascist ideology or expressing sympathy for Nazism. Have I missed something? Or does your personal distain for Musk lead you to assert that this was meant to be, must unequivocally be, a Nazi salute - and therefore Musk must be a Nazi sympathizer? Has Musk ever referred to Trump as Führer? Has he proposed governmental control over private enterprise according to the fascistic model? Have I missed any suggestion on his part that "undesirables" should be interned in detainment camps or disposed of in death camps? Wherein has Musk advocated conquering other countries and creating Lebensraum? Did I miss something he said publicly about Aryans, a master-race, or purifying the American people of racial impurities? I would be very interested in seeing proof of your contention ... beyond this singular ambivalent gesture.
Also:
https://x.com/esjesjesj/status/1881716580876497257?s=61&t=coJn76122FaTbYD5_vu5-Q
https://www.cnn.com/2024/12/20/media/elon-musk-afd-germany-politics-far-right/index.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_for_Germany?wprov=sfti1
So your accusations are based on his observations that AfD appear to be the only German political party willing to stem the virtually unrestricted flow of immigrants into Germany? I find this unconvincing as proof that Musk is "Nazi adjacent". It is a stretch to believe that AfD are Nazis in the traditional and historical meaning of the word. I find some of their positions somewhat repulsive, but nothing I have read (including the links to which you referred me) prove they are neo-Nazis.
With regard to the gesture you characterize as a Nazi salute, I have seen photos of Obama, Clinton, Biden, and Harris making the same gesture. Given their authoritarian leanings, would I be justified in casting them in the same light?
There are many things for which you can honestly castigate Elon Musk. Why dilute your valid criticism with this conspiracy-theory-like craziness? You seem to be a rational person. Doesn't it make more sense to focus on the alleged misogyny, hypocrisy, slave-driver attitude toward employees, etc? Wouldn't attacking his political stances be more persuasive than calling him names? Especially using the tired, old Nazi trope that has been so abused that it no longer had any effect during the recent election.
Man, the Nazis ruin everything. Even the Nazi salute!